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Advice sought from longtime musician-hobbyist / geek

tl;dr: Geeky lapsed hobbyist musician seeks advice re iOS/Win/PC-based DAW workflow that includes modeled sound from digital piano.

Hey there,

I promise I've done lots of homework before blathering here; have spent tons of hours researching the space & options (which kept me up 'til 4am last night :open_mouth: ). Much thanks in advance for reading!

What I want to do: compose, record, and share online pieces that are typically piano-centric with orchestral accompaniment. A mix of pop/classical/jazz stylings. If you're curious or bored, you can check out some of my (mostly decades-old) noodlings, but note that the instrument choices / instrument sparsity / lack of instrument diversity was largely due to the limitations of music hardware at the time.

What I have: Roland LX-17 digital piano with Bluetooth MIDI (downstairs), iPad Pro with Apple Pencil, iPhone 6S Plus, Macbook Pro, Windows 10 desktop (upstairs), old USB audio interface (M-Audio FastTrack Pro), a willingness to spend an additional hundreds of dollars but not thousands.

What I'm thinking about getting: A MIDI controller so I can have aftertouch for wind/brass instruments (leaning towards the CME Xkey 37 Air). iOS and/or Mac/PC sequencing/DAW software (since Garageband doesn't offer MIDI out or seem to play very well with others in general). Some VSTs (considering buying & reselling a cheapo $59 iRig keyboard to take advantage of the get-SampleTank3-free promo).

My experience: I'm pretty geeky / tech-savvy, but outside of work I'd rather spend time making music than dealing with crazy-steep learning curves, tweaking settings, etc. I studied piano for 14 years (mostly classical, some jazz).


Here's the composite challenge and questions:
1. I love the feel and sound of my digital piano, which has great modeled sound. The piano thankfully has audio-out, but I'm unsure how I'd best be able to mix that output into compositions with VSTs. What would the optimum flow be? Output audio to my iPad? My Macbook?
2. Can I leverage aftertouch with GarageBand (through an external MIDI controller)? With the default sounds? With VSTs such as the ones from SampleTank or Cubasis (Halion)?
3. I really really suck at percussion stuff now and appreciate the serviceable drum stuff in GB. If I used a "real" DAW like Cubasis or Auria Pro on my iPad, could I still somehow leverage the GB percussion? Or is GB just too silo'd?

Basically, I am grateful (and a bit embarrassed) to have #FirstWorldProblems here, but frustratingly overwhelmed by the options. I totally get that DAWs are very personal and that different people like different ones (I've read a zillion threads debating 'em!), but I really appreciate any opinions you can share given the constraints and preferences I've noted above :smiley:

Thanks again!

Comments

  • First, decide what platform you want for your DAW. I have Auria Pro, and it's a great app, but I can't stand trying to automate precisely with a touch screen, so I stick to mixing on my computer DAW. If you can get by on iOS and have a powerful enough iPad to do so, look into Cubasis or Auria Pro as your DAW. Otherwise, go Macbook and demo the DAWs to find the one that matches the workflow you like best.

    I rarely open up GarageBand, so can't really speak to 2 or 3, but there are a gazillion drum machine apps for iPad other than GB. I love iMPC Pro, Patterning, Gadget and iELectribe.

  • My take is to use the macbook for the DAW. Mac handles audio better (more simply, and so much more reliably), than windows, and ios (sorry!) hasn't yet reached the maturity and power and stability of computer DAWs. I like Logic. Plenty of midi editing power, scoring, built in instruments, great stock plugins. Cheap too, relatively speaking. And you can open garage band projects directly.

    I use the ios stuff as an instrument/keyboard/drum machine/idea sketchpad/music toy, and the computer is for getting down to business, depending on how ambitious your productions are. There is Logic Remote for the ipad too, for mixing on the touch screen.

    Another alternative is Reaper, a lot of people really like how simple it is for tracking and arranging, it is incredibly affordable. It has less in the instruments and midi dept as logic. Works on the PC too. Haven't used Ableton, but lots of readers here have, and can say whether it applies to your scenario.

    if you are going to slurge a few hundred bucks on one thing for music production, let it be studio monitors. Lots of good ones out there. KRK, Yamaha, Event, Mackie. Whatever it is the 8" ones are so much better than the 5" ones, because you can actually judge the low end right. If that's too much the Sennheiser 280 headphones are great studio headphones, as long as you don't have a small head.

    Another good purchase is a big computer monitor, or HD Tv, much better for editing.

    Re: garageband percussion, Logic has some kind of auto drummer thing, but if you wanted the actual garage band drummer, you can "Rewire" (slave, sync, and route audio from) garageband into your main DAW. It is a great, underused tool, and widely adopted across all the major DAWs.

    Re: your digital piano, I'd record the audio to a stereo track in your DAW, with the m-audio thing. You can record the Midi too, at the same time, if you wanted to layer the sound, or wanted a score of what you played.

  • Get a powered camera connection kit and a powered hub. You'll be able to take the computers out of the equation when not needed. And it is pretty liberating

  • I will not quote @Processaurus above, but I agree whit what he says on every point.

  • It sounds like you should buy Logic Pro X for your MacBook Pro. How old is the machine?

  • Garageband iOS can be used to “ferry” content into Logic Pro X, as LPX will directly open an iOS Garageband doc, once you get that onto the Mac.

  • edited May 2016

    A second 17" monitor can be picked up for $150 or less. It's actually more useful to have two monitors than one Hi-Def monitor because you can get more screen space without making your DAW or VSTs very small. If you are using Logic--or any DAW--it is very helpful to your workflow to have as many windows present at the same time.

    Quality for a second monitor isn't important as long as it displays the same amount of pixels as the primary monitor. If you are doing photo editing or video--where it does matter--you can use your primary monitor.

    I have one 4K monitor and a cheapie on the side. If I had the space on my desk, I'd get a third one.

    As your music is piano-centric, you might want to consider a first class piano VST, like the Synthogy ones.

  • edited May 2016

    Hi @ThatAdamGuy - GB for iPad is not pricey, it costs very little money, so why not just buy it and try it? It is very easy to understand, and no harm done if you don't like it. Sorry, but my english is just not good enough to completely understand your preferences, but.... if it turns out that GarageBand for iPad isn't completely compatible with your ideas/preferences beforehand, it might happen that your creative mind finds new unforseen roads to express itself :)

    That is if you haven't bought it already.

  • 100 points for putting the tl;dr first!

    If you're comfortable with using the computer, my vote is actually GarageBand on your Mac. Pretty much does everything you want. Once you outgrow it, get Logic Pro. Does everything you want and then some.

    Your existing audio interface will be fine for connecting the Roland to the mac but I don't think that one works with iOS (don't quote me). Does it have MIDI io? If not, you'll need something there unless the Roland has USB MIDI.

    If all of your apple stuff is updated and newish, you can get audio going back and forth between them with a direct connection (or so I hear, my stuff is older). I use an Iconnectivity interface to move stuff between them and it's a piece of cake.

    Think you'll be happy with the CME. One thing to note as a piano player is that the keys have very very little travel. It's a different sort of playing surface/experience even though it's laid out like a keyboard. On that note, you might find Thumbjam or even Animoog (with MIDI out IAP) a more expressive playing surface for your stated purpose.

    Welcome to the forum.

  • edited May 2016

    The fast track pro works with iOS via CCK but outputs 3-4 go into feedback loop-sing as soon as you feed with some signal on iOS 9.3.1. Tonight I'm going to update the OS and see if something changes.

  • edited May 2016

    Ah, wow, I had expected to receive email notifications of replies) but obviously did not... and luckily I decided to check back here. It's past midnight and I'm heading to bed, but will provide a decent followup tomorrow (technically today :p); just wanted to thank you all in the meantime and apologize for seemingly ignoring your kind replies!

  • @mschenkel.it said:
    The fast track pro works with iOS via CCK but outputs 3-4 go into feedback loop-sing as soon as you feed with some signal on iOS 9.3.1. Tonight I'm going to update the OS and see if something changes.

    Updated. Still working-ish as before.

  • You can set that up in the notifications @ThatAdamGuy .

  • edited May 2016

    tl;dr: BIG THANKS! Have 1 remaining question (below). And from your input + my continued research: Just bought xkey 37 bluetooth MIDI controller, got free SampleTank 3, may buy Bohemian Violin, will use Macbook Pro for primary DAW, will buy powered USB hub for piano-Macbook stuff.

    Remaining question:
    How would I record audio and MIDI from my piano at the same time?

    • Piano has audio out, USB MIDI out, Bluetooth MIDI out.
    • Macbook Pro has USB slots, and a dual mic/headset jack; also supports Bluetooth but unsure if that includes Bluetooth MIDI.

    So I could imagine audio would go piano audio out -> FastTrack Pro -> USB cable to Mac, and then... hmm... separate USB cable from piano to other USB slot on Mac?

    I can do Bluetooth MIDI recording to my iPad, but unsure if that'd work with the Mac. Maybe I'd have to buy yet another peripheral for that?

    Feel free to keep reading for my responses to your helpful notes :)


    re platform:
    I'm not sure what automation I'll be needing to do. My iPad is the iPad Pro: pretty powerful (but sadly w/ only 32gb storage, so that could pretty quickly end up being problematic).

    Sounds like I'm generally better off using my laptop for the DAW, at least as a primary. It's my work Macbook Pro from 2013 w/ 16gb RAM, so it's old but reasonably beefy. I'll likely be upgrading it in the coming months to either a newer Macbook Pro or a powerful Win 10 convertible tablet (e.g., Lenovo Yoga).

    And in fact, I realized I'll have to use a laptop (vs. just an iPad) because all the good VSTs are only going to fit/work on a real computer.

    I do already have the lightning USB adapter, but no powered hub yet. I'm starting to fret that my living room is gonna be a tangle of wires, but oh well :p.

    I did purchase the CME xkey 37 Air (Bluetooth model); it'll work with all my devices I believe, and yep, I read that the keys have far from piano-like travel and, alas, that tackling pitch bend and mod from buttons can be a bit challenging. Trade-offs!

    I already have some good (well, good enough for me :D) studio monitors, so I'm set there. And an HD-TV (downstairs) and big computer monitor (upstairs).

    re drums: Shoulda realized I wasn't limited to GB for drum stuff! I'm shockingly new to the iOS platform (like, never used an iDevice before April of this year).

    re GB: didn't realize that I could "rewire" it into most major DAWs; thanks!

    re VSTs: Would rather not invest in Pianoteq or other awesome piano VST right now 'cause I already have such great sound from my digital piano. But I realize that that complicates the workflow :(.

    And speaking of VSTs: Just got SampleTank 3 for free (and, yes, I know it's a middling package, but I figure it's fine for a beginner). And I'm in love with the Bohemian Violin and am tempted to buy it. Other than that, I'll think I'll hold off on VST purchases for a bit until I spend more time getting familiar with the basics. Also, I'm reading that a lot of the orchestral VSTs require a ton of knowledge and tweaking because, well, real instruments are complex .

    re DAWs: I think I'll start w/ GarageBand, and then it seems the cross-platform Cubase may be the best bet for me, since I may be swapping my Macbook Pro out for a Windows machine.


    Thank you again for all the great insights and friendly welcome :)

    P.S. -- And yep, turned on notifications now!

    P.P.S. -- Promotional deals I've seen / taken advantage of this weekend; perhaps they're helpful to someone else?

    • SkyMall (!) sells the CME xkey 37 bluetooth air for $299 (same price as everywhere) but offers 15% off with coupon "memorial2016".
    • Cheapest iRig MIDI controller I found (to get the free SampleTank 3) was $59 via Guitar Center (on Google Shopping Express)
    • It looks like this may be the last weekend before a price increase w/ Bohemian Violin (timeline noted on site: "April/May")
  • Since you mentioned you had a few bucks to spend - and this is just my 2cents...
    To me it sounds like an iConnectAudio4 would be really helpful to you. 4 mic/line ins, (two of which your piano can use. ), 5pin midi in and out, USB midi port (supports at least 7 USB devices via a hub. Also, in your case it can route to and from both the iPad and computer), plus a port for the iPad AND the computer. There's an amazing amount of routing capability accessed via a slightly clunky app (desktop version a bit better than the ios), but the audio streams from both the inputs as well as sources in the pc and iPad can be sent anywhere else.
    Sounds great too.
    From what you describe you're looking for, it's possible the iCA4 could be the piece that ties all your parts together.

    Best of luck!

  • So I could imagine audio would go piano audio out -> FastTrack Pro -> USB cable to Mac, and then... hmm... separate USB cable from piano to other USB slot on Mac?

    Yup. Bluetooth should work too on a 2013.

    You can always record MIDI with the GarageBand built in piano (or sampletank's) and when it's convenient, connect your Roland and have the recorded MIDI trigger it while you record it's audio out.

    Definitely think you want to put Thumbjam on your iOS shortlist if you don't already own it. Great samples, wonderful playing interface.

  • Thanks, wigglelights and syrupcore! Though re iConnectAudio4... the reviews are pretty awful on Guitar Center and Amazon :(. And since I won't have my Macbook Pro and iPad connected to my piano most of the time, I'm unsure what I would gain w/ the iConnectAudio4 that I couldn't get this way:

    • Piano USB-MIDI-out to powered USB hub
    • Piano Audio-out to FTrack
    • Ftrack USB-Audio out to powered USB hub
    • Powered USB hub into iPad (via Lightning USB adapter) or Macbook (direct)

    But it's past midnight here (again!) so it's possible I'm thinking of this all backwards :open_mouth: Please don't hesitate to clue me in to whether my idea is infeasible or whether there are benefits to iCA4 that I'm overlooking.

    re Thumbjam... heh, I just bought and installed that a week ago! But unfortunately I didn't get much use out of it because -- as a pianist -- I was confounded by the lack of a 'real' piano keyboard (e.g., white and black keys) and so couldn't even manage to play basic melodies :o. (I also would have no idea how to incorporate any noodling on Thumbjam into a DAW).

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