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Does Bias sound "Fake"?

Hi,

So I've been listening to a lot of demos/reviews of bias/bias fx and one thing that strikes me is that many of the tones seem to have an almost digital quality to them.. Like too much richness, overtones, resonance (don't know what to call it) that seems a little forced. This is I don't recall hearing this in real life with amps (next to the amp or through the speakers in the control room), for the 15 years I played music (mind you I was not a guitar player), in a former life.

Maybe it's just how a Fender or Marshall sounds like when close mic'ed and my memory just fails me :-) I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

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Comments

  • There really is NO substitute when it comes to recording a guitar through an amp. I've always felt Bias was a bit too "present" for lack of a better word.

  • hmm, I'm not an expert. But I really like the sound of it. I think Tonestack Distortions sound waaaay more digital and fake to me. As well as Some other apps.

  • I wouldn’t say its 100% wave form accurate, but I will say that when I dial up the amp matched Slodano and run it through AltiSpace its pure magic and I feel like I’m riding a pro rig.

  • I agree 100%. Tonestack is my preferred choice. DISCLAIMER: I don't even mess with trying to get distorted tones on either of them anymore. Even for demoing, anything beyond a splash of overdrive doesn't cut it for me.

  • I spent pretty much the entire calendar year of 2014 playing guitar exclusively through iPad apps and headphones. Despite spending 100's of dollars on the apps and IAP's, I don't think there's any question that I saved large amounts of money playing guitar that way instead of pumping cash into effects pedals and other gear (which did resurface a bit this year).

    But since I was being pretty negative on BIAS and Positive Grid in another thread, I wanted to say nice things about them here after downloading BIAS FX. Just have the base package right now - it's really not recommended at all for my device (iPad 2), so I was prepared for the worst.

    Yet, I was pleasantly surprised. After a fresh reboot and placing things on Airplane mode, BIAS FX functioned surprisingly well. I even put it on ultra-low latency and still didn't really experience any noticeable audio glitches. (Now, running things through AB, which I did not try, may be a different story).

    I think ToneStack is a good product. It's probably the most comprehensive suite of effects tied up in one package on iOS, though BIAS FX with all the IAP's would probably give it a run for its money. In terms of amp simulation quality, however, I think Positive Grid's products have the best performance across the board. So long as you get used to some non-traditional volume/gain settings to avoid clipping, BIAS FX mostly gets it right from Fender Clean to Marshall Crunch, and high-gain models as well.

    The problem with BIAS before was that the original BIAS app was functionally limited and (still) a bit unstable. Positive Grid may have milked some extra money out by incrementally upgrading their app modelling software, and then reselling it as a new app that incorporates effects, but I think BIAS FX is a winner, and probably even better on a newer device. As a pedal fanatic, it also seemed to be the most intuitive and "realistic" to me in terms of how the effects are presented and how you interact with them. It's all about perspective: people get excited when a $200 boutique pedal offers a mod switch ("hey, two pedals in one!"). But software like this covers multiple pedalboards of effects, plus a range very different amplifiers, and all in a single package...for about the price of a single Chinese clone pedal.

  • @StormJH1, very well put. That quick little post was a good read.

  • @High5denied said:
    StormJH1, very well put. That quick little post was a good read.

    Yes thanks for that, useful feedback for on-the-fencers like me.

  • @High5denied said:
    StormJH1, very well put. That quick little post was a good read.

    I thought you were ripping me once I got to "quick little post" (I tend to ramble when it comes to guitar stuff). Haha.

  • @StormJH1 said:

    No way.... Not my style. :)

  • From what I've heard of pretty much all the iOS emulations, is that there's far too much gain on a lot of presets.
    Creates quite a 'mush'.

    On the positive side, they're 'good enough' in my view, particularly if you don't have a nice amp / a decent mic / a good recording space and probably most importantly, experiencing of micing up an amp.

  • @StormJH1 said:
    So long as you get used to some non-traditional volume/gain settings to avoid clipping, BIAS FX mostly gets it right from Fender Clean to Marshall Crunch, and high-gain models as well.

    Could you say a little bit more about this? My ONLY experience is with amp sims (including the amp sim in my Fender Mustang), so any guidance on the volume/gain balance is welcome.

  • I swap out the first pre-amp tube in my Peavey Classic 30 to control how much gain I want, a 5771 for clean Jazz or a 12AX7 for blues or rock.

    Much easier to swap tubes in Bias.

    I put a 10 band graphic EQ pedal in the FX loop of the Peavey. Was ecstatic when I realized that Bias allows me to put an EQ in after the tone stack and before the power stage where it belongs.

    Bias is amazing. The compression and sag of real tubes pushing real air is hard to emulate but Bias comes damn close and is much easier to record.

  • edited September 2015

    Thanks for your perspectives people,

    I kind of regret the choice of words for the headline, I didn't mean to troll or knock bias :-)

    There is a term "Hyper Real", where can be taken to mean amplifying some part of realism, beyond what would be real. I guess I was afraid that was an inherent quality to Bias. Here is an example of what I heard in videos, but not really the best one + the guy is obviously changing the amp configuration, which I guess could lead to all kind of results. Skip to the 12 minute mark:

    Anyhow, I took the plunge and have spent about an 1.5 hours with Bias Amp & FX and I'm well pleased. What I heard on some of those online videos, I did not when using it myself.

  • @RigVader never responded but was well covered. Good choice. I own most guitar apps and almost exclusively use BiasFX. I know exactly what you mean about live amp versus app or sim but can always find what I am looks for with Bias FX. Have not bought IAP yet but will eventually.

  • I do not trust the sound quality of YouTube.

  • I think it sounds great...but it feels off when playing...it's great for post production...

  • I like the idea of embracing the digital sound, and for that I'm really enjoying flux:fx with my guitar, it fits well with all the electronic drum machines, granular sampler synths and cie that we have on the iPad

    For more traditional sound my go to is flying haggis, it sounds great and it s very fast to setup

  • @dokwok2 said:
    Could you say a little bit more about this? My ONLY experience is with amp sims (including the amp sim in my Fender Mustang), so any guidance on the volume/gain balance is welcome.

    What I am saying is that your first priority when setting up BIAS FX (or any iPad amp sim) is to avoid clipping, and the settings that get you to usable sounds can be somewhat weird compared to what you would do if you were sitting in front of a real-life amp. And it seems like 95% of the user-created BIAS amps are designed to be even LOUDER than the factory ones.

    A lot of people take a dump on BIAS and all iPad amp sims, but I really wonder if there are some very simple errors they are missing that are prerequisite to getting good tones out of amp sim software. First, you need a good interface. Anything that plugs into the headphone jack is the wrong answer. Fine for experimentation, but add any type of gain and you'll have a noisy, muffled mess. I use the standard Apogee JAM - works very well and quietly. I recently got one of those Griffin StudioConnect stand interfaces for $32 and was quite disappointed to find out that the 1/4" jack for the guitar interface is pretty poor. It's comparable to the headphone jack ones in terms of excess noise.

    Next, you have to manage your levels. I'm not a pro at this, but there is an overall output slider at the bottom right of BIAS FX. You can use that, but you also will need to lower the Master volume quite a bit to keep things manageable (I'm around 3-4 on most amps). Gain is preamp gain - it can add volume, but mostly creates clipping in the preamp stage of the amp, which translates as overdrive, distortion, or even clean saturation. Experiment with these different settings to see how you can keep the output gauge in the green and yellow, while conveying the tone you want.

  • @StormJH1 said:
    I use the standard Apogee JAM - works very well and quietly.

    That's what I use too. What do you aim for as your INPUT level? (In other words, how do you adjust the physical gain knob on the Apogee unit?)

  • @dokwok2 said:
    That's what I use too. What do you aim for as your INPUT level? (In other words, how do you adjust the physical gain knob on the Apogee unit?)

    As you know, the Apogee JAM has a nice feature where the color of the light on the front tells you the input level, and you can adjust the gain knob. Opinions differ on this, but I've heard people who know mastering saying that you should use -6dB as a target for an overall mix. But I've read elsewhere that -12dB should be the target to ensure that you do not clip. This also makes sense if the guitar is sitting in a mix, and is one of several instruments/tracks you are recording together.

    You can look at the LED on the Apogee unit, Bias FX's input gauge (bottom left) or both. Strum normally and then test a few aggressive notes/chords. The gauges should mostly stay in the green levels, or perhaps just touch yellow once in awhile. I know very little about mastering and audio stuff in general, but the more I learn, I find that I need to have my levels set much quieter than I initially thought in these apps. You can turn the volume up in your headphones if you want to hear things louder, but pushing limits to the brink will just result in crummy audio quality.

    Should also note that input levels differ quite a bit from guitar to guitar. You may need to increase the gain knob on the Apogee quite a bit, for example, if you are switching from humbuckers to a Strat with vintage-output single coils.

  • @StormJH1 said:
    I find that I need to have my levels set much quieter than I initially thought in these apps.

    That's helpful. Thank you.

  • Question, with the distortion pedals out now-a-days, and such. I haven't bought one since my Boss MT-2. How would the differ from software? aren't they little computers inside the pedals? Therefore using algorithms to create sounds? Maybe they don't use computers inside pedals yet, but if it is a digital pedal, I would assume they would.

    And ya @StormJH1, that is a lot of really useful info. Thanks!

  • @High5denied said:
    Question, with the distortion pedals out now-a-days, and such. I haven't bought one since my Boss MT-2. How would the differ from software? aren't they little computers inside the pedals? Therefore using algorithms to create sounds? Maybe they don't use computers inside pedals yet, but if it is a digital pedal, I would assume they would.

    And ya StormJH1, that is a lot of really useful info. Thanks!

    Actually, most of the popular guitar effects pedals that are popular today are still based on analog circuitry (especially overdrive/distortion pedals). Just like the technology of electric guitar pickups hasn't changed significantly since the 1940's and 50's, effects pedals based on analog circuitry (transistors, capacitors, etc.) have been around for several decades and really started to proliferate in the early 80's. There ARE many pedals out there with digital components, but for a variety of reasons (affordability, reliability, traditionalism, etc.), analog effects pedals continue to be popular even though the technology is obviously available to make everything digital.

    But, like you said, you can use a modeling algorithm to simulate just about anything - including what happens to the signal once it is fed through a Tubescreamer, Boss DS-1, chorus pedal, etc. In low-cost modeling software like the iPad apps, the results are mixed. I think BIAS FX has some of the better dirt pedals I've heard on the iPad, but that doesn't mean that I'm necessarily as happy with the way a Tubescreamer or Fulltone OCD equivalent behaves in the app versus in real life.

    And the amps being modeled, of course, are largely solid state circuitry and tubes, so it's definitely the case of "digital impersonating analog" there as well.

    One thing that does NOT work well, is trying to put real guitar pedals in front of an iPad modeling app. Some of the new elite modeling processors (like Kemper or Line6 Helix) are starting to behave more amp-like with pedals, but those are still $1,500+

    It's easy to be critical of BIAS FX if you expect it to sound like a $1,500 tube amp, but the reality is I've spent all of $33 on it so far (not counting the iPad and interface). Sounds pretty good relative to that investment :)

  • I think BiasFX's nexted little brother JamUp Pro sounds very natural. With the right preset and tweaks, you can hear the non-existent air being pushed by the non-existent cabs. Also has some great bass rigs. It suits my needs quite well. Regarding real vs. fake sounding guitar tones, one trick I've learned that might help achieve a more natural tone (definitely helps in a recording mix) is to dial in the distortion you •really• want, then dial that back a few notches. Oversaturated guitar sounds great by itself, but not in a mix. Unless of course you WANT the guitar to be front and center, ala Satch or Eric Johnson.

    I also recently discovered you can record in through compression (I've been using Korvpressor, see other thread) to avoid the whole "my chug-chugs-are-louder-than-my-sustained-chords" issue. That was a very "Aha! So that's how Metallica did that" moment for me :)

    I don't have BiasFX, so I can't speak to the OP directly just yet. Before too awful long I suppose Positive Grid will pull the plug on JamUp and I'll have to switch. I expect BiasFX will sound at least as nice as JamUp once I do. And I certainly hope they keep plain old BIAS around to work with BiasFX. Hot-rodding amps is fun.

  • @eustressor - Good points. I also liked JamUp Pro quite a bit. I do feel that amp models in BIAS are bit more "complex" sounding, but I had a lot more factory and IAP amps saved up in JamUp, so it's not a like comparison. I hope they continue to support JamUp, as it has quite a user base of its own (and continues to remain useful). But that is always a concern when a developer "overlaps" the functionality of their own product with a new product.

  • They have a new product coming out tomorrow. Again. I think it's hardware related. They have sold over 1000 of the pedal BT board. That's quite a lot. Pre-sale even. Good amount of users of their products.

  • @StormJH1 said:
    I hope they continue to support JamUp, as it has quite a user base of its own (and continues to remain useful). >But that is always a concern when a developer "overlaps" the functionality of their own product with a new product.

    fingers crossed

  • Well, since Jamup is an IAP in Auria, that may be enough to force PositiveGrid to keep updates on Jamup. I invested a lot of money into Jamup and the IAP's when it first came out. I saw the potential it had to only get better. What I didn't foresee was that they would abandon the loyal customers for a better version that they could make a lot more money on.

  • @Martygras said:
    Well, since Jamup is an IAP in Auria, that may be enough to force PositiveGrid to keep updates on Jamup. I invested a lot of money into Jamup and the IAP's when it first came out. I saw the potential it had to only get better. What I didn't foresee was that they would abandon the loyal customers for a better version that they could make a lot more money on.

    Yeah, total grab. Fingers DOUBLE crossed ...

  • My experience playing out live with Bias FX (on an ipad air 2 - input w/ iRig HD) is that the main struggle is with volume control.... if you allow clipping at all, it starts to compress the sound quite a bit. There is some sort of problem when it comes to volume control in general - when a properly leveled signal is coming out, it is at a VERY low level, meaning that you have to turn your amp (or PA channel) up quite a bit. In addition to that, the volume knob on the guitar doesn't really seem to work very well.... roll off on the guitar and the tone will clean up a bit, but the volume doesn't get turned down so much... l would really appreciate some good advice on this.

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